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[SW] Charisma - war: Small Talk
Samael:
--- Zitat von: Alexandro am 27.01.2010 | 15:39 ---@Samael:
Witzig dass du Shakespeare anführst: in wievielen seiner Werke werden die Protagonisten wortlos oder durch 5-Wörter-Sätze (genau das ist ein (einzelner) Wurf auf Persuasion) überzeugt. Wie häufiger dagegen sind es schwülstige, langwierige Reden, welche den Ausschlag geben (etwas was RAW nicht durch Persuasion abgedeckt ist).
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Das war ich nicht. Aber ich finde Shakespeare durchaus nicht langwierig oder schwülstig.
MarCazm:
--- Zitat von: Yvo am 27.01.2010 | 15:02 ---Ich sehe, das SW in Puncto Charisma eine Schwäche hat, welche die Verteidiger teilweise durch Argumentation zugeben (das muss man nicht so eng sehen, anpassen, ignorieren, wieder aufdröseln, durch Rollenspiel lösen... = von den geschriebenen Regeln abstand nehmen)...
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Nein, denn man kann komplett bei den geschriebenen Regeln bleiben. Den Charisma ist nicht overpowered, siehe weiter folgend:
--- Zitat von: Yvo am 27.01.2010 | 15:02 ---Und obwohl dies so ist, stehen Persuation/Streetwise in einer Reihe mit den anderen Skills (Driving, Healing, Fighting...) obwohl sie durch die starken Boni/Mali eigentlich völlig anders "gehandhabt" werden. Natürlich würfelt man immer noch mit einem W8 oder sonstwas, aber der Erfolg wird nicht wirklich vom Skill bestimmt, sondern, ob ich Charisma -2 oder +6 habe.
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Liest du eigentlich noch, was hier geschrieben wird??
Weil:
--- Zitat von: MarCazm am 27.01.2010 | 14:18 ---Desweitern darf man auch nicht vergessen, dass bei einer 1 auf dem Skill Die bei Persuasion es gleich 2 Stufen nach unten geht bei der Reaction Table egal wie hoch der Charisma Bonus ist und was der Wild Die gewürfelt hat.
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Das ist für mich sehr Skillabhängig!
Ihr beschwert euch darüber wie hoch die Boni für Charisma och sind und wie unbalanciert das Ganze doch ist aber vergesst dabei, dass egal wie hoch der Charismawert ist, bei einer einzigen 1 auf dem Skill Die der Persuasion versuch nach hinten losgeht.
Warum beschwert ihr euch nicht darüber? Habt ihr das vielleicht bei all euren Regelexkursen überlesen oder ignoriert ihr das bewusst um nur etwas zum drauf rumreiten zu haben?
Zornhau:
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--- Zitat ---Here's a Rippers question:
If at a social function, how would one perform a subtle investigation? i.e. sending out feelers in conversation while hob-knobbing. which of the following would work; persuasion, investigation, or streetwise? note that what I have in mind is something that would not risk status, but rather sifting thru gossip and hearsay to find the odd clue.
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Definitely not Investigation that skill deals with research and specifically excludes getting information from people.
Between Persuasion and Streetwise, you could use either or both (allowing a character to choose which skill they use).
Streetwise does specifically deal with getting information from people (the description under Investigation even says to use it for that purpose), but sometimes there are issues with the name and it's description to limit it to more base sources of information. If you can accept Streetwise as a general "Inquisition" skill, then that would be fine.
Of course, Persuasion could certainly work since Persuasion and Streetwise are both affected by Charisma and both use the same Attitude chart for effect.
In fact, if the social function aspect were to be a major (or continuing) part of the game, you could set your clues to correspond to the attitude levels ahead of time.
Hostile = Character deliberately lies.
Uncooperative = Refuses to talk.
Neutral = Chit-chat. Roll a d6. On a 6, a Clue is given.
Friendly = Reveals a single Clue.
Helpful = Reveals all Clues the character knows.
Of course, the knowledge would be dependent on the specific character which you could determine ahead of time with Character X, Y, Z, general party guest, etc. Of course some characters may have Clues that are in fact Red Herrings (inaccurate), and there should be crossover of important Clues. Heh, could be funny if a Hostile character lies about a Red Herring and thus ends up telling the "truth" by accident.
Oh, and just to confirm, yeah, I agree that this is more of a Charisma-based situation than a Status one, so losing Status shouldn't normally be an issue (unless a character specifically wanted to risk it by bringing it into effect).
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--- Zitat ---4) Do Half-Elves (as Outsiders but not "true outsiders (as per the hindrance)") have a -2 charisma penalty, or merely a roleplaying penalty?
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Yep, they have the penalty. The reference to not being "true" outsiders means that they do not come from, well, outside the culture. But the effect is the same due to their parentage. It a good example of how a mechanic can be used to represent different things depending on the "flavor text."
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--- Zitat ---1) Is there a typo on p. 114? Because that (under "Persuasion and Streetwise") says that when a PC is trying to convince an NPC, or using the above skills, then one rolls 2d6 on the table and adds *both* characters' charisma scores. Would an NPC being "very attractive" and/or "noble" make him or her more likely to like all PCs?
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Yes and no. Remember, that roll is to determine the NPC's initial attitude. In other words, when the PCs first meet this character, how will they act.
People with higher Charisma scores are more inclined to act positively because, well, they have higher Charisma scores.
A noble is generally not going to be outright hostile because it's not proper to act that way. People who don't get reacted to poorly generally don't react that way themselves. If they do, it's usually because they have a Hindrance that gives them a Charisma penalty.
The real key is to remember the word, "initial." This is just to give the GM an idea of how to play an NPC at the beginning of an encounter if he doesn't already have an idea how to play them.
An attractive charismatic noble may wish to be helpful initially, but that could change instantly depending on the PCs' requests and actions.
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--- Zitat ---An attractive charismatic noble may wish to be helpful initially, but that could change instantly depending on the PCs' requests and actions.
Make sense?
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I'm not sure. I guess it would give an "in game" explanation for why nobles get along with each other in general. But aside from a failed Persuasion roll (which in the case I detail below would likely not be needed, since the initial reaction would very likely be at the highest level), are there any mechanics to describe how characters can "downgrade" an NPC's initially nice reaction? Because simply asking for a favour should not by itself do it, according to the table on p.114. If the reaction starts at the highest level, it seems like the charismatic very attractive noble npc who meets the charismatic very attractive pc is willing to do "easy" or "more dangerous" tasks "for little or no pay". So long as that PC doesn't outright insult the noble, is there any way the pc falls out of the npc's good graces?
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Well, remember the first rule always...
"For nonplayer characters, you should decide their initial attitudes if you have a strong idea of what it should be."
The Reaction Table is...
"For those times when you don't have a strong feeling or plan as to how some random character might react to your heroes..."
If a character is detailed enough to be attractive, charismatic, and a noble, then they really shouldn't fall under the "random character" category.
That said, the most important part of the Reaction Table is that it is initial attitude. Can it change? Absolutely. Based on roleplaying and the NPC's goals and personality. It doesn't matter how nicely the players ask or what rolls they succeed at, if they ask for something antethical to the NPC, they will change his attitude.
Example:
"Could you please resupply us, milord? We're heading north to fight the orcs."
"Excuse me? The orcs to the north are our allies. Not only do I have a treaty with them, but their chief is my blood brother. Guards!"
Also, don't forget the last sentence of the Helpful result...
"...depending on the nature of the task."
If the attractive charismatic PC asks the attractive charismatic noble for a company of soldiers to go in a dungeon, it's not going to happen regardless of how "Helpful" the noble is. The noble may send out word to member of his militia to see if anyone is interested.
That's kind of an important point to remember, the other part of the Noble Edge besided the Charisma bonus, the responsibility. By the very nature of being noble, their ability to help is both increased and restricted.
But it's more than nobles; it's everyone. The attitude doesn't define the actions; that's determined by the individual.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the characters don't exist in a vacuum. How the noble reacts may not be how his seneschal reacts, and the attractive charismatic PC isn't going to look so good beside the ugly mean bloodthirsty PC. In fact, it may take all his influence to keep his companion out of the stocks.
Ultimately, the Reaction Table is just a fall back when the GM needs an attitude off the cuff. It isn't meant to determine the attitude of every NPC or even the majority of NPCs. It's just there when the players catch you offguard with someone.
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--- Zitat ---When do you add your charisma to your persuasion roll?
When you initially roll on the reaction/persuasion table?
When you attempt to improve your "friendliness" level by making a persuasion roll (4 upping your level by 1, 8 upping it by 2)?
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Check under the skill on page 15 of SWR, "Persuasion is always modified by a character's Charisma." So when a player rolls Persuasion, Charisma modifies the roll every time.
Now, when a GM doesn't have an idea as to how some random character will react to a PC, then he rolls on the Reaction Table. The result is modified by the total of the PC's and NPC's combined Charisma. So players don't roll on the Reaction Table, that's only a GM thing and only when he has no idea how an NPC might react to the PC to begin with.
Thus, a character with a high Charisma has a better chance of a better random reaction and a better chance of improving that reaction.
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--- Zitat ---1 - Does Charisma (with a lot of edges and hindrances that build it) really have influence only on Persuasion & Streetwise rolls? What about Taunt, Intimidate etc.?
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Charisma modifiers Persuasion and Streetwise; it has no effect on Taunt or Intimidate. Charisma is a measure of a character's "likeability," and that really has no impact on Intimidation or Taunt. It takes picking up an Edge like Strong Willed to modify those skills.
--- Zitat ---2 - If a Chara wants to enter a guarded place, what kind of interaction / skills have to use with guards, example to lie, or fasttalking, or convince?
I can understand that Persuasion & Streetwise skills are useful to rise the initial attitude (well, ok, streetwise is useful to find contacts too).
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Streetwise is the skill to get information from people, and Persuasion is the skill to "talk or trick others into doing what you want." So lying, fast-talking, and convincing all fall under Persuasion as the goal is to get them to do what the character wants.
--- Zitat ---3 - What is that strange rule that ADD the two Charisma value of a Character and a NPC to obtain a modifier to the Reaction Table??? Confused Confused
I can understand that if i have a Charismatic Chara, I can favorably dispose the other person, but why an high Charisma bandit or shopkeeper or guard should be more friendly towards me??? Maybe i need to turn the NPC Charisma in a penalty? I can figure a low Charisma shopkeeper or guard like a unfriendly, angry, antisocial or unpleasant...
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Well, this falls more under a design question than a rules question (the rule is obviously understood), but I'll see if I can cover it a bit.
Basically, it's the same reason why a low Charisma NPC would be figured as unfriendly, angry, antsocial, or unpleasant; the high Charisma NPC is going to be the opposite because they are a high Charisma person and (as noted above) likeable and friendly generally. The PC has to have some drawback (a negative Charisma) for that person to react poorly to them because usually the NPC is lkeable (high Charisma).
Also, keep in mind, that the GM only uses that table when he has no idea what the reaction of the NPC will be to the PC. If the PCs run into a bandit, the GM will most likely have a good idea of what that bandit's reaction will be to them.
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--- Zitat ---The attractive edger seems broken. Being ugly is(charisma -2) is only 1 point while Attractive (charisma +2) is worth 2 points. Plus outsider gives you a -2 in broad circumstances while ugly is a -2 everywhere and they cost the same. Ugly should cost more or attractive cost less.
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The comparison effects of Hindrances and Edges are designed that way on purpose. Hindrances aren't built to negate equal effects for an equal point cost; there is always a bit of a loss so they remain hindrances.
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Clint once gave me a very good explanation for this. Basically it came down to discouraging munchkinism. Besides, though it doesn't say exactly in the text, both Ugly and Outsider are subjective, and therefore only come up in specific circumstances. I can see a character only getting their Ugly penalty when engaging with people who don't know him, and therefore have trouble seeing past it.
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--- Zitat ---Does the charisma bonus from (Very) Attractive apply when audio-only communication is used?
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Officially, there is no use limitation on the Charisma bonus from Attractive/Very Attractive, but equally officially, the GM can apply any situational modifier to a roll they deem appropriate. Since Charisma itself is based on appearance at least partially, modifying for a situation where appearance does not apply seems appropriate.
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Samael:
--- Zitat von: Boba Fett am 27.01.2010 | 15:37 ---Ja, ich denke, dass sich schlicht irgendwann der Geduldsfaden überstrapaziert ist...
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Man könnte das andersherum auch formulieren. Die soziale Interaktion ist bei SW einfach unzufriedend geregelt (damit ist das System allerdings nicht alleine), und je nachdem wie man spielt kann die "Charisma-Regelung" durchaus große Probleme machen. Dass dies fortwährend mit "its a feature, not a bug" und "ihr versteht das System nicht richtig" versucht wird zu verteidigen kann auch einfach mal nerven.
MarCazm:
--- Zitat von: Samael am 27.01.2010 | 15:52 ---Dass dies fortwährend mit "its a feature, not a bug" und "ihr versteht das System nicht richtig" versucht wird zu verteidigen kann auch einfach mal nerven.
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Das mag daran liegen, dass hier nur mit Halbwahrheiten versucht wird zu argumentieren warum und weshalb Charisma so "broken" sein soll.
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